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  • What is the use of the hidden "[developed]" folders

    ACDSee Ultimate creates hidden folders named [entwickelt] (should be [developed] in the English version) that contain full size jpgs of all RAW files that you ever worked on in the develop module. And that is additional to the .xmp files that sit next to the original RAWs. Since the sidecar files are there the [developed] folders are just an annoying waste of disk space, esp. since you can't access them from within ACDSee - you only become aware of them if you have set the explorer to show hidden folders.

    No other raw application that I compare ACDSee to (on1 Photo Raw, DxO Optics Pro, LR, Raw Therapee) has this kind of nuisance. Is there a way in "preferences" to stop this? Alternatively, can anyone explain to me what the use of this is?

  • #2
    The Jpeg images in the[Developed] folder are there to increase the efficiency of your system. They are called "proxies", and they are the finished result of your Develop Mode work. Remember, your Raw file never changes, and the Xmp file only contains a list of Develop settings to produce your final finished image. So, where is the end result? That's what the proxy image is -- your final developed displayable image.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by LV_Bill View Post
      ... and they are the finished result of your Develop Mode work. Remember, your Raw file never changes, and the Xmp file only contains a list of Develop settings to produce your final finished image. So, where is the end result? That's what the proxy image is -- your final developed displayable image.
      Thank you for your explanation. I thought that it was the job of the "export" function to "produce the final finished imgae". That way i can alter quality and size of the output as well as rename the file, and - best of all - put it somewhere that is not hidden.

      As it is, there is nothing I can do with these jpg files since they don't show up in "manage" mode of ACDSee nor in other picture browsers such as on1 Photo Raw Browse ore XnView. i only stumbled upon them when for some other reason I had Windows explorer show hidden folders. I can't even print them because also my favorite print programme Qimage Ultimate doesn't find hidden folders.

      I just went ahead and deleted one [developed] folder. When I opened the changed RAW files in manage mode, all the changes were applied (as they should be, since the .xmp file was there) and the "efficiency of my system" was as brilliant as ever - no adverse effects at all.

      So I would strongly suggest that ACDSee at least gave me the option to switch this behaviour off or at least supply a convincing reason why these files are vital for the functioning of my system. My experience would suggest that they are not necessary at all.
      Last edited by pefunk; 03-30-2017, 10:31 AM.

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      • #4
        I just went ahead and deleted one [developed] folder. When I opened the changed RAW files in manage mode, all the changes were applied (as they should be, since the .xmp file was there) and the "efficiency of my system" was as brilliant as ever - no adverse effects at all.
        When no proxy file exists, the program has to recreate one whenever you access a Developed image. So, some amount of PC overhead is required that wouldn't be necessary if you left the [Developed] folder alone.

        I would strongly suggest that ACDSee at least gave me the option to switch this behaviour off or at least supply a convincing reason why these files are vital for the functioning of my system.
        You can easily get rid of the [Developed] sub-folders if you really want to without having to worry about accessing hidden folders. To kill-off existing proxies, just click Tools > Commit Changes.

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        • #5
          PE, you would likely only see negative effects of having deleted the developed folders if you in view mode try to enlarge the image you see. Then ACDsee would have to recreate the image in the developed folder before being abet to zoom in. Until that happens you will see the embedded jpg that your camera placed within the RAW image.

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          • #6
            @I.V_Bill. I can't find Tools>Commit Changes. I have the German version and thanks to the wisdom of ACDSee I cannot switch the language to English, also you cannot buy the English version in Germany. The closest equivalent to Tools>Commit changes that I can find is Extras>Verarbeiten>Änderungen endgültig übernehmen. But this function is greyed out (inactive) in manage and view modes and not included in develop and edit modes. Maybe SCX or Emil can help. I also posted a request to the German support team.

            @njlarson. You can select in preferences whether you want to see the embedded jpg or the decoded RAW in manage and view modes. If you have no [developed] folder it takes some time for ACDSee U10 to render the file in view mode if you zoom to 100%. All the adjustments that you made in develop mode are applied (from the list in the .xmp file) in that rendering. This rendered image is not saved as .jpg in [developed] but only resides in RAM or VRAM. Nothing is added to [developed).

            I don't want people to be deprived of their [developed] folders, i just want the option to live without them.
            Last edited by pefunk; 04-01-2017, 12:50 AM.

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            • #7
              Tools > Process > Commit Changes
              ​Attached is a screenshot in case it helps to see where** the option exists in the English version.

              ​**-the assumption is the feature is in the same place, but in German instead.

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              • #8
                Thanks Gus, that is what I suspected. The German version is Extras>Verarbeiten>Änderungen endgültig übernehmen. From your attached screenshot I see, that this funnction is inactive (greyed out) on your PC also. Is there any scenario where you can actually invoke that function. I certainly haven't found one.
                Last edited by pefunk; 04-01-2017, 07:05 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by pefunk View Post
                  Is there any scenario where you can actually invoke that function. I certainly haven't found one.
                  pefunk - Apologies for omitting "Process" in my earlier menu string. I went back and double-checked the Commit Changes function to respond to your question (above). I was surprised to find that it indeed does not work for Develop Mode proxy images. At least not in Ult-10.

                  In the current implementation, the Commit Changes function is limited to deleting the saved original images from Edit Mode. That's the other hidden sub-folder -- [Originals]. I have all the older ACDSee versions loaded on a test system. When I get a chance, I will go back and see if deleting proxy images from the [Developed] sub-folder was previously part of the Commit Changes function. Or, maybe I just remembered it wrong. More on that question later.

                  One final thought. If you think of these proxy files merely as Developed "preview" images, that's the same architecture used throughout the Raw format scheme. There is a preview image buried inside the Raw file -- put there by your camera. It's there for viewing efficiency -- so you don't have to Develop your Raw images just to see what they look like. The [Developed] sub-folder simply continues the Raw preview architecture. You can delete them if you really want to, but is it really worth it? Disk space is now running about $55 USD per terabyte on an HDD. Just something to think about.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LV_Bill View Post
                    ...

                    One final thought. If you think of these proxy files merely as Developed "preview" images, that's the same architecture used throughout the Raw format scheme. There is a preview image buried inside the Raw file -- put there by your camera. It's there for viewing efficiency -- so you don't have to Develop your Raw images just to see what they look like. The [Developed] sub-folder simply continues the Raw preview architecture.
                    i have no problem whatsoever with that concept. BUT, do these previews really have to be as big as the original raw files??? My RAWs are 16.3 MB each. The corresponding "preview" files range between 11.4 and 18.3 MB. I have over 50,000 raw files on my 4 TB HD. Disk space maybe cheap but its definitely finite. I could even live with that if the files were usable, i.e. accessible in other programmes for printing, publishing, sharing: i.e. not hidden. As it is I export additional files into different folders for those purposes.

                    Not to be misunderstood, Ultimate 10 has very fast become my favourite image processing software. i hardly ever need to use other programmes. If I do it is mostly Affinity or Photoline. When I need these programmes for finishing touches or layout work I miss one more feature that I have gotten used to with DxO and RawTherapee: export the photo directly to another application without saving it to a file first.

                    But that would be a new topic.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pefunk View Post
                      Thanks Gus, that is what I suspected. The German version is Extras>Verarbeiten>Änderungen endgültig übernehmen. From your attached screenshot I see, that this funnction is inactive (greyed out) on your PC also. Is there any scenario where you can actually invoke that function. I certainly haven't found one.
                      There is. See attached. This was done by opening a TIF file in Edit Mode.... editing the file... click done... then selecting save.
                      ​ACDSee keeps the default file in the [Originals] folder... "Commit Changes" would delete the file from [Originals]... "Restore to Original" would copy the original back over the edited/saved file.

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                      • #12
                        pefunk - Correction on the Commit Changes functionality. I tested this feature all the way back to Pro4 when it first appeared. I confirmed that from the beginning, the Commit Changes function can only be used to delete saved original images from Edit Mode (in the [Originals] folder). I does not delete proxy images from the [Developed] sub-folder.

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                        • #13
                          I too have learned that the proxies in [Developed] folder exist to speed up view mode. But after replacing these JPGs with dummies I found that they never are displayed anywhere in the program. Depending on the settings in the options (ALT-O) what gets displayed is the blown up thumbnail read from 'Thumb1.fpt' for a very short time followed by the 'JpgFromRaw' tag read from the raw file (that's why the image flips) and at last the raw file with applied development setting. The development is done on the fly; AC does not display the proxy at all. I couldn't find a combination of settings that triggers displaying any proxies.

                          I found this by replacing all jpg images involved (database, meta data tags and proxies) with completely different dummies. To be honest I'm with pefunk at the moment: The proxies seem to be a complete waste of time and space. Am I missing something?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Emil View Post
                            .....after replacing these JPGs with dummies I found that they never are displayed anywhere in the program .....Am I missing something?
                            Hi Emil - Yes, I believe that something did not go right with the way you tested this issue. I was intrigued by your unexpected test results. So, I ran similar tests of my own. My results were that the proxy images behave exactly as we have always been told that they work. In View Mode, they are what you see displayed. In Develop Mode, the proxies are displayed briefly while the XMP file is decoded and then a new image displayed. I confirmed your View Mode finding that for a very brief moment, an expanded thumbnail is displayed (I never knew that).

                            Here's how I ran my test, proving that proxies behave as expected. I selected four Developed images, and copied them into a test folder. Then, using Windows Explorer, I accessed the [Developed] sub-folder directly, and renamed the proxies. Same four file names, but I intentionally mixed them up. Every Raw file had a proxy, but it was the wrong proxy.

                            When I double-clicked on a thumbnail in Manage Mode, for a moment I could see the expanded thumbnail (as you discovered). Then, the proxy image would display, just as I had renamed them – the wrong image. In moving from image to image in View Mode, the wrong proxies displayed without the momentary expanded thumbnails.

                            When in Manage Mode and going directly to Develop Mode, a similar behavior occurred. First, the wrong proxy would display while the "Loading" message was on the screen. Then, the wrong proxy would be replaced by the correct image.

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                            • #15
                              I appreciate the research you guys have put into this topic and all it does is reinforce in my mind the benefits of being able to turn [Developed] proxies on or off. Disk space is cheap, but backing up takes time. What if I want to speed up my backup time by slowing down my preview time? You have proven that there would be no adverse consequences by turning off the feature. Sounds like I need to suggest it as a new feature. Thank you for your efforts!

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