Snapshots. My long missed Snapshots "are back". Great!

[MAU]

Hello all,

As you may have read in my previous post a few minutes ago about a bug in the Edit/Repair tool, and for reasons that would be too long to explain, I have just recently upgraded to Ultimate 9. I must say that if Snapshots was the only new feature in Ultimate 9, that would be a good enough reason for me to upgrade.

Once upon a time (10 years ago) I was a happy and satisfied user of RawShooter from Pixmantec. For me, the best RAW converter at the time, being Snapshots one of its best features. And not only for me, because that is why Adobe purchased Pixmantec (their technology assets) when they were in the early stages of Lightroom development and, as a consequence, RawShooter was discontinued. Adobe was "kind enough" to grant RawShoooter Premium registered users a free license for Lightroom when it came out. Only for the first version, though. I never liked Lightroom, y always preferred my beloved ACDsee, which I was already using in parallel with RAW Shooter.

Since I always missed Snapshot, I suggested this feature to ACDsee many years ago, and probably more that once. And hey! It took some years but they are finally here!

Thanks ACDsee, great job!

MAU

[jpmccormac]

Thanks for posting this. I'm new to Pro 9 and there is nothing that I've found in the Help files about Snapshot or how to use it. Can someone point me to a full explanation? Thanks.

[LV_Bill]

Hi Miguel – Glad you like Snapshots. Not many ACD users seem to fully appreciate this feature. Like you, I waited years for this. A lot went into testing it, and I’m hoping for even more improvements in the next version. See below for a couple of tips on the quirks in the current implementation.

jpmccormac – The Snapshots feature is, for all intents and purposes, about the same thing as “Virtual Copies” in other similar software packages e.g. Lightroom. However, there are a couple of important-to-know quirks in the behavior of Snapshots in Ult-9.

1. The first step (and the first quirk) is that a Developed image does not by default become Snapshot #1. You must create the first Snapshot yourself and give it a name. That will preserve the original Develop settings as Snapshot #1. I have requested that the original Develop settings default to Snapshot #1 – the same as in Edit Mode, where the initial image always defaults to Layer #1. For Ult-9, however, you must perform this first step yourself.

2. After you have ‘locked’ the original Develop settings as Snapshot #1, next you can create many additional Snapshots as you want using the +sign to request a new snapshot. By default, the current settings become the new active settings for any new Snapshot – kind of like a Save As. This leads to the next very important behavior (quirk IMHO).

3. Each Snapshot that you create will have its very own unique group of Develop settings. And, you can change and refine those settings independently, without limitation. However (big quirk), any Develop settings changes that you make to an existing Snapshot, will NOT be saved automatically. You must save your settings manually by right-clicking on the active Snapshot’s name, and then click on “Update from current settings”. Although, this is certainly not a complicated step, it is something that Develop Mode users are simply not used to doing. In my early usage of Snapshots, I found it really easy to forget to save settings before clicking on another Snapshot name – which loses the changes I just made because I forgot to save them with the right-click and update command. I have strongly requested some way for this to be automatic, or at least show a message saying “save current changes?”. For now, remember that you have been you are forewarned, and accept that the fact that you will botch this at some point. Best to do it while you are testing this new feature.

4. Once you get the hang of having multiple Develop variations of a single image, this feature is absolutely terrific. One last FYI, the thumbnail that you see in Manage Mode will always be from the last active Snapshot. And, if you really want a particular snapshot as the thumbnail, just open the image in Develop Mode, select the desired snapshot name, then click Done. Even though you haven’t made any Develop settings changes, you will see the selected snapshot as the new thumbnail. Have fun, and feel free to post back with any additional questions.

[MAU]

Thanks for posting this. I'm new to Pro 9 and there is nothing that I've found in the Help files about Snapshot or how to use it. Can someone point me to a full explanation? Thanks.

Hello jpmccormas,

First of all, sorry for my late reply. You say you use Pro 9, but I assume the Help should be the same as for Ultimate 9. Have you looked at Help > Develop Mode > Working in Develop Mode > Taking Develop Snapshots? It tell you how to create them, etc., although I must admit it does not give a very good idea of snapshots usefulness. The paragraph "As you make adjustments, you can take a snapshot at any time to save your work up to that point. You may then continue to edit as desired, but can return to the version in your snapshot whenever you like." may lead new users to think that snapshots are only for saving intermediate states in the development process, so that you can return to that intermediate point at any time. While that is true, I like to see snapshots as the possibility of having different variations of the same image (virtual copies?) so I can later decide which one to keep as my final image, or keep the all, why not?

An extreme example: After I have developed and image I may think that maybe it would look nice in B&W. I take an snapshot, then select B&W treatment and probably change exposure and contrast (and some more tweaks) and take a second snapshot. That way I have two versions of the same image without duplicating the image file itself. Or I may create different versions of the same image using different color balance and/or lighting adjustments, or even different crops or perspective settings, or different gradients, or...

If you understand how non destructive editing works: that the original image file is never altered, that when you click Done on Develop pane what happens is that the current settings in the Develop pane are saved and kept as XML formatted text in a .XMP file, and that when you reopen that image, for example in View, the image file opened is still the original and unaltered one to which the develop settings in the .XMP file ar applied in real time, then you will understand that snapshots are just different groups of XML formatted text, each with a different name, that depict different develop settings, and that you can switch between them very quickly while in Develop or View modes.

Hope this explanation is of some help.

MAU

Edited to correct some TYPOS.

[MAU]

Hi Miguel – Glad you like Snapshots. Not many ACD users seem to fully appreciate this feature. Like you, I waited years for this. A lot went into testing it, and I’m hoping for even more improvements in the next version. See below for a couple of tips on the quirks in the current implementation.

Hi Bill,

Sorry for my late reply. I am quite slow at typing, I like to think what I say to make sure I say what I think and English is not my native language. So, when I foresee that I am going to write a long message, I like to take it easy and make sure I will have time to write it.

I also like to see that you like snapshots. Pending a more extensive use of them, I think ACDsee's implementation is quite good and I have a few disagreements with you. Let's see:

1. The first step (and the first quirk) is that a Developed image does not by default become Snapshot #1. You must create the first Snapshot yourself and give it a name. That will preserve the original Develop settings as Snapshot #1. I have requested that the original Develop settings default to Snapshot #1 – the same as in Edit Mode, where the initial image always defaults to Layer #1. For Ult-9, however, you must perform this first step yourself.

My first disagreement. Why if I don't take any snapshots I should have one? Will then the thumbnails in Mange show the snapshots icon? What will happen if I delete Snapshot 1? Wouldn't this confuse users who don't want to use snapshots at all? I may think of other reasons for my disagreement, if I do, I'll come back and post them.

2. After you have ‘locked’ the original Develop settings as Snapshot #1, next you can create many additional Snapshots as you want using the +sign to request a new snapshot. By default, the current settings become the new active settings for any new Snapshot – kind of like a Save As. This leads to the next very important behavior (quirk IMHO).

Let me decide if I want to take an snapshot of the original image, which I don't think is necessary at all. Try something: take an image and go to Develop, change something and take snapshot 1, change something else and take snapshot 2, then make some other change (for example B&W) and click Done. You thumbnail in Manage will now show the Developed and Snapshots icons and the preview will be B&W, right? Now, with the thumbnail selected, select Restore to Original (Tools > Process > Restore to Original). what happens? Yes the preview is set to original image, the developed icon is removed but the snapshots one IS NOT removed because no snapshots has been deleted. Is this WAD or just a collateral feature. No matter what, I like this behavior.

3. Each Snapshot that you create will have its very own unique group of Develop settings. And, you can change and refine those settings independently, without limitation. However (big quirk), any Develop settings changes that you make to an existing Snapshot, will NOT be saved automatically. You must save your settings manually by right-clicking on the active Snapshot’s name, and then click on “Update from current settings”. Although, this is certainly not a complicated step, it is something that Develop Mode users are simply not used to doing. In my early usage of Snapshots, I found it really easy to forget to save settings before clicking on another Snapshot name – which loses the changes I just made because I forgot to save them with the right-click and update command. I have strongly requested some way for this to be automatic, or at least show a message saying “save current changes?”. For now, remember that you have been you are forewarned, and accept that the fact that you will botch this at some point. Best to do it while you are testing this new feature

Disagree. I usually don't like that any software decides by me. Unless there is an Option that I can select to Save/NOT save automatically, I much prefer that it doesn't. I may select an snapshot, make some changes and the decide if I want to save them in current snapshot, create a new one or just click Done.

4. Once you get the hang of having multiple Develop variations of a single image, this feature is absolutely terrific.

Fully agree :-)

One thing I do miss is that there seems to be no way to easily find images with snapshots, not with a special item in Catalog tab and neither possible with a Search.

I may have more comments once I have used snapshots more extensively.

Best regards,

MAU

[Emil]

Imho snapshots have a few quirks.

- In details view (F12 in manage mode) you can't see if there are any snapshots
- All snapshots share the same meta data
- The export feature can only export images with the current active settings

I prefer to create hard links for my raw image files, they are much more flexible.

[MAU]

Imho snapshots have a few quirks.

- In details view (F12 in manage mode) you can't see if there are any snapshots
- All snapshots share the same meta data
- The export feature can only export images with the current active settings

I prefer to create hard links for my raw image files, they are much more flexible.

Hello Emil,

Of course they have a few quirks, and I am sure more will be found as we use them more extensively. But anyway, I am a happy camper with what they do and how they work now.

I hardly use details view in Manage, but your are right, in details view there is no way to see if there are any images with snapshots. This is because in the list of 'Available details' for display there is none for snapshots. This is also why you can't do a Search for images with snapshots.

In regards to metadata, of course they share the same metadata. Because they share the same image file, where metadata is saved. Snapshots are just different views of the same image file, that is why I don't like to think snapshots are virtual copies, to me they are just different views.

About export (or Batch Edit, which is what I mainly use) it seems logical to me that they can only export/edit the active settings (view).

What do you mean by "had links"?

Best,
MAU

[jpmccormac]

Hello jpmccormac,

First of all, sorry for my late reply. You say you use Pro 9, but I assume the Help should be the same as for Ultimate 9. Have you looked at Help > Develop Mode > Working in Develop Mode > Taking Develop Snapshots? It tell you how to create them, etc., although I must admit it does not give a very good idea of snapshots usefulness. The paragraph "As you make adjustments, you can take a snapshot at any time to save your work up to that point. You may then continue to edit as desired, but can return to the version in your snapshot whenever you like." may lead new users to think that snapshots are only for saving intermediate states in the development process, so that you can return to that intermediate point at any time. While that is true, I like to see snapshots as the possibility of having different variations of the same image (virtual copies?) so I can later decide which one to keep as my final image, or keep the all, why not?

Edited to correct some TYPOS.

Thanks for the explanation, MAU. I don't know how I missed Snapshot in the Help file, but a Search didn't find it. I feel comfortable now with using them after your explanation and pointers.

[Emil]

In regards to metadata, of course they share the same metadata. Because they share the same image file, where metadata is saved. Snapshots are just different views of the same image file, that is why I don't like to think snapshots are virtual copies, to me they are just different views.

Hmm, how about a shot of your grandparents and you crop two snapshots - one of your granddad and one of your grandma. I would apply different meta data to these 'snapshots'. This is just a very simple sample. I my work flow different meta data for different 'snapshots' are essential.

About export (or Batch Edit, which is what I mainly use) it seems logical to me that they can only export/edit the active settings (view).

Following the sample above. How would you export the two pictures of you grandma and granddad? Or how would you export different snapshots of your shot to discuss them with members of your photo club?

Imho snapshots can be much more than just a history of development settings.

What do you mean by "had links"?

It's 'hard links'. A way to have more than one pointer to a single file. Your Windows directory contains tons of them - here's a more precise description and tool. I use a small script installed as external editor in AC to create them. This way I can have two or more completely separated xmp side car files for the same raw file.

[MAU]

Hi Emil,

Hmm, how about a shot of your grandparents and you crop two snapshots - one of your granddad and one of your grandma. I would apply different meta data to these 'snapshots'. This is just a very simple sample. I my work flow different meta data for different 'snapshots' are essential.

I think I can understand what you need/want to do, but it is not possible without saving/exporting the image file with each snapshot first. I assume you would want to change some IPTC field(s) for each one, but IPTC is just part of the image file Metadata (IPTC, EXIF, ACDsee Metadata, Maker Notes), and like the rest of Metadata, it is UNIQUE for each image file.

Following the sample above. How would you export the two pictures of you grandma and granddad? Or how would you export different snapshots of your shot to discuss them with members of your photo club?

It can only be dome one at a time. I would do it (I do it) by opening the image in View window, select the snapshot by clicking on the snapshots icon at the bottom, select the snapshot I want and then do a File/Save as. Using Batch Export or Batch Edit will only export the snapshot that was selected as active before clicking Done on Develop. Both batches would have to be modified to automatically (and optionally) export all snapshot when dealing with an image file with snapshots. I'm afraid ACDsee developers will not go for it.

Imho snapshots can be much more than just a history of development settings.

As I said above, I think I understand what you want/need, but that is something different to Develop snapshots.

It's 'hard links'. A way to have more than one pointer to a single file. Your Windows directory contains tons of them - here's a more precise description and tool. I use a small script installed as external editor in AC to create them. This way I can have two or more completely separated xmp side car files for the same raw file.

Thanks. I don't know if I had ever heard of 'hard links'.

MAU

[Emil]

As I said above, I think I understand what you want/need, but that is something different to Develop snapshots

Yepp, hard links offer a much wider concept for snapshot. And imho they fully include ACs develop snapshots. That's why I use them.

[LV_Bill]

Hola Miguel - This post responds to your lengthy post (#5) in which you expressed some "disagreements" with my comments about quirks in the Snapshots function. Obviously, I must have used very poor wording in my post because you did not correctly understand the problems I was describing. So, I'm going to try again. This time, I will use examples in addition to descriptions. You can repeat the steps for these examples for yourself.

Quirk #1 - Original Develop settings are lost when the first snapshot is created.

In this example, you have an image which has already been developed. Assume that you have made some basic Develop adjustments to Light EQ, Contrast, Clarity, etc. Next, you decide that you wish to create a black & white version of this same image using Snapshots -- a virtual copy within the image.

Here are the steps to demonstrate the problem: Open the image in Develop Mode. Click the Snapshots icon to open the Snapshots tool pane. Click on the + to create a Snapshot. Give it a name and click OK. Next, click the Black & White button (in General). Then, right-click on the name you gave the Snapshot, and click "Update from current settings". That's it. You now have a black & white version of your image.

Having created the black & white Snapshot version, next go back and view the original color version – the initial Develop settings you had before you created the snapshot. You will discover that those initial Develop settings have been lost. All that remains is your new black and white snapshot and nothing else. That is the quirk.

The solution in this example is to make a Snapshot #1 to preserve the original Develop settings. Then, you must create a Snapshot #2 to make the black & white version.


Quirk #2 – When moving between Snapshots, unsaved Develop settings are lost.

In Develop Mode, users also know that they may navigate between the four tool groups in Develop (Tune, Details, Geometry, Repairs). And, during these jumps between tool groups, any settings changes they make in any of the tool groups are "accumulated" by the program, but not actually saved until the Done button is pressed.

When working with an image with multiple Snapshots, the program can only "accumulate" proposed settings changes for one Snapshot at a time. If you navigate to a different snapshot without clicking "Update from current settings", all accumulated settings changes are lost. When you perform the "Update from current settings" function, it's the same as clicking the Done button. You cannot later press the Cancel button and abandon your changes to Snapshots.

Here are the steps to demonstrate both problems described above: Open a test image in Develop Mode. Create three snapshots: (1) Original color version, (2.) a black & white version, and (3.) a portrait orientation version. Save this test image.

Test #1. Open your test image in Develop Mode. Click on the first Snapshot to make it "active". Make some settings changes as a test. Then, click on a different Snapshot name. Next, go back to the first snapshot. You will see that your test settings changes were lost, because you did not click on "Update from current settings".

Test #2. Perform the same steps as above, only this time click on "Update from current settings" to preserve your test settings changes. Next, click the Cancel button to abort the Develop session. When you re-open your test image, you will find that even though you clicked Cancel, your test changes were made and they were saved to the XMP file. The "Update from current settings" feature is the same as a Done button.

I consider this to be a major design flaw. The program should be able to "accumulate" multiple settings changes for multiple snapshots without actually saving them in the XMP file until the Done button is pressed.

[MAU]

Yepp, hard links offer a much wider concept for snapshot. And imho they fully include ACs develop snapshots. That's why I use them.

Hello Emil,

I did take a quick look at the hard link description you suggested in your post #9. And when I say 'quick look' that's what I mean, I found the description too long and detailed (even dense) for me at the moment. Anyway, and independently of how they are created and work, I understand they are just links, right? And if so, I still don't quite understand why and how you used them. I'll give you an example of how I understand they work and, if you don't mind, please correct me if any of my assumptions are wrong.

Let's assume I have Image1 in Folder A and that I create a hard link in Folder B and one in Folder C. Like this:

Folder A - Image 1
Folder B - Image 1 Hardlink 1
Folder C - Image 1 Hardlink 2

I am then assuming that if with U9 in Manage mode I go to Folder C, I will be seeing Hardlink 2 as if it was an image (thumbnail included), and that if select it and go to View or Develop, Hardlink 2 (actually Image 1) will be opened and displayed. Is this correct? If it is, what I don't know/see then is if you can have for example different Develop settings for Image 1 (if opened directly) and Hardlinks 1 and 2. If this is not possible, it is then obvious I am not understanding how hard links work and how you are using them.

Best,

MAU

[MAU]

Hola Miguel - This post responds to your lengthy post (#5) in which you expressed some "disagreements" with my comments about quirks in the Snapshots function. Obviously, I must have used very poor wording in my post because you did not correctly understand the problems I was describing. So, I'm going to try again. This time, I will use examples in addition to descriptions. You can repeat the steps for these examples for yourself.

Hi Bill - If I didn't understand it's probably my fault, not yours.

About Quirk #1. Using your example, the first thing I would say is that I would first select B&W and then create the snapshot, I would never (or hardly ever) use "Update from current settings", but I don't think this makes any difference for the quirk you describe. I must admit there is a quirk. But there is another nasty way to get around the quirk which I prefer (and will explain why later). If after creating the B&W snapshot, without first creating Snapshot 1 to save the initial develop settings, you click Cancel instead of Done, you will see that that the thumbnail is the one corresponding to the initial develop settings and not for the B&W version. And if you reopen your image again, it will open with the initial develop settings and the B&W will also be available. But having to hit Cancel is also a quirk.

While I am writing this I am also making some tests and things are getting even more confusing. Let me continue with the test and when I understand what I am doing and what is happening, I will continue with this and also reply about Quirk #2. OK?

MAU

[MAU]

Hi Bill,

Here I am again to talk about Snapshots and its Quirks (not only the ones you point). I am sure you already know and understand most, if not all, of the things I will write about but, for the benefit of other readers who may not know or have a clear idea about, I will go into the basics of how Develop Mode (non destructive editing) works and how Snapshots have been implemented.

OK. Non destructive editing (not altering the original image file at all) is implemented by using a side-car file with the same name as the image one but with extension .XMP. It is a plain text file that you may open with any text editor and it is structured using XML language. Develop settings are saved in this .xmp file in a block like this:

<acdsee:dpp>
...
(develop settings)
...
</acdsee:dpp>

So, if you open an .xmp file for an undeveloped image this block will not exist. If the image has been developed, the block will exist and contain all develpment settings. When you view a developed image, the original image is loaded and the development settings in this <acdsee:dpp>...</acdsee:dpp> block are applied in real time. If you open the image in Develope Mode, aside of applying the settings to the displayed image, the settings (sliders, values, etc) in the Develop Pane will be updated accordingly.

Now, what about Snapshots. They are also saved in the .XMP file withing a block like this (Soft Focus is the name of the Snapshot):

<acdsee:Snapshots>
<rdf:Bag>
<rdf:li>&gt;Soft Focus ....
...
(develop settings)
...
</rdf:li>
</rdf:Bag>
</acdsee:Snapshots>

If I create a second snapshot named Cross Process will now look like this:

<acdsee:Snapshots>
<rdf:Bag>
<rdf:li>&gt;Soft Focus ....
...
(develop settings)
...
</rdf:li>
<rdf:li>&gt;Cross Process ....
...
(develop settings)
...
</rdf:li>
</rdf:Bag>
</acdsee:Snapshots>

If there are no snaopshots at all, because I have not created any or deleted all, the <acdsee:Snapshots>...</acdsee:Snapshots> will not even exist in the .XMP file. The same happens with develop settings, if I have not done any develop editing the <acdsee:dpp>...</acdsee:dpp> will not exist, or if I have 'Restored to Original' it will be empty.

To fully understand the whole issue we must look at how and when, specially when, the .XMP file is updated. For this, we must look at the Done and Cancel buttons at the bottom of the pane and to the New Snapshot button (the + at the top right of the Sbapshots window) and click OK, and also to the 'Rename/Delete/Update from current settings' options if you right click on an existing snapshot.

The Done button. When you open an image (developed or undeveloped), make some adjuntements and click Done (and Save, if you have not selected Auto-save), the <acdsee:dpp>...</acdsee:dpp> section will be created and/or updated with the CURRENT settings in the Develop Pane.

The Cancel button. If you open an image to edit in Develop Mode, make chages to any settings, and perhaps even create some snapshots, and then click on Cancel, the image file will be closed and the. XMP file WILL NOT be updated at all and, therefore, the <acdsee:dpp>...</acdsee:dpp> section will remain unchanged. So, the image will still be undeveloped if it was when we opened it, or maintain previous development settings if if it was already developed when opened. This occurs when you EXIT Develop Mode when clicking Done or Cancel.

Snapshots are handled a little differently. The Snapshots section of the .XMP file is updated *immediately* after Creating a new snapshot, or when renaming, deleting or updating from current settings an existing one. This is important to undertand some of the peculiarities (quirks?) of snapshots, the .xmp file is updated *inmediately*.

Now lets see a few examples of situations (quirky or not) that may take place:

1.- Open an undeveloped image, change some settings, create an snapshot and click Done. The develop settings will be the same as the snapshot ones. The thumbnail in Manage will show both the Developed and Snapshots icons. If you reopen the image and delete the snapshot, the develop settings will not be lost whether you you click Done or Cancel.

1.1.- Open the image developed in 1 above. Make some changes to the settings and click Done. The .xmp file will be updated with new settings.
1.2.- Do as in 1.1 above but click Cancel. The latest changes will be 'lost' (discarded), as it should be.

2.- Open an undeveloped image, change some settings, create an snapshot and click Cancel. There will not be any develop settings in <acdsee:dpp>...</acdsee:dpp> section. The thumbnail will only show the Snapshots icon, because there is an snapshot. Yes, an undeveloped image may containg snapshots. Quirk?

3.- Open an already developed image, make some changes, create an snapshot and click Done. The develop settings will be the same as the snapshot ones.

4.- Do as in 3 above but click Cancel. Your original develop settings will be mantained as well as the snapshot, and they will not be the same.

I could perhaps think about some more combinations, but I think there is no point and this message is getting too long (at least for me).

If we are fully aware of how and when the .xmp file is updated, we should know what to expect when dealing with snapshots.

Bill, in your previous message (#12) about Test 2 you said: The "Update from current settings" feature is the same as a Done button. At least that is not true.

Cheers,

MAU