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  • Someting wrong

    Hi

    I don't want to get a reputation on here for constantly whinging or looking for problems. But I want to raise two issues. After this, I'll shut up.

    There is something wrong, in my opinion, at the core of this otherwise excellent retouching software. And it seems to apply mainly to larger images.

    Take a TIF image of your own. Preferably a fairly dark and flat one, and enlarge it to at least 6000x3000 pixels if it isn't already large.

    Open it in Edit. Open the Exposure function. Make significant changes - say 10 to 15 in exposure, contrast and lightness.

    Observe the adjusted image.

    Now click done, whilst watching the screen. Observe the new image.

    Is it as it was displayed before you clicked 'done'? Mine are not. At best, about half of the strength of the edit has been applied. And repeated attempts also produce about half the effect, so however many times you do it, you never quite get there.

    This applies to the old Pro10 software too, which i still have installed, except that just ignores the edits altogether. I've been using Pro10 for years, but have only ever edited smaller images, making modest tuning tweaks here and there as you do. But I have noticed in the past that edits I thought I'd applied - like noise brush - i see haven't been applied some way down the workflow. I'd assumed clicking 'done' applied what I'd set and I moved on. But it hadn't.

    This is a huge problem for me now. I have reported it to ACDSee and they've escalated it. But they don't issue updates and they've already issued U2022. So it would seem that I'm stuck with this problem.

    Another issue that may or may not be related to the above.... I use Topaz Labs' Sharpen AI s/w to crisp up large images. I've only just started using this. Yesterday I processed an image generated in U2021 through Sharpen AI. It subsequently viewed fine in View mode in U2021, but when I switched to Edit mode, two weird, small, semi transparent green patches appeared on it.

    They do not appear in edit mode in ACDSee Pro10, Gimp or Paintshop Pro (8). And they always appear in U2021 after repeated attempts using the same steps.

    This could relate to the fact that somewhere along my workflow, the image has picked up a color profile called 'sRGB IEC61966-2-1 black scaled'. If this is the problem, it's no excuse as Pro10, PSP and Gimp are fine with it. What it is, I'm not sure, or where it came from. Possibly from an enlarging process in Topaz Labs' Gigapixel AI s/w.

    As I say, I've reported the first issue and ACDSee seem to be taking it seriously, although I don't expect to hear anything more. I'm not reporting the second. I'm too busy to spend time trying to recollect precise order of procedures and uploading screengrabs etc etc. ACDSee should be able to find their own problems. It seems to me that the first issue listed above is pretty major and I'm surprised it wasn't spotted before release.

    If I'm wrong on any of this then I apologise. If it's something I'm doing wrong, ditto. Perhaps I'm missing something. If so, maybe someone can set me straight. I'd far rather be wrong than right.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Antelope View Post
    Hi
    Take a TIF image of your own. Preferably a fairly dark and flat one, and enlarge it to at least 6000x3000 pixels if it isn't already large.

    Open it in Edit. Open the Exposure function. Make significant changes - say 10 to 15 in exposure, contrast and lightness.

    Observe the adjusted image.

    Now click done, whilst watching the screen. Observe the new image.

    Is it as it was displayed before you clicked 'done'? Mine are not. At best, about half of the strength of the edit has been applied. And repeated attempts also produce about half the effect, so however many times you do it, you never quite get there.
    1. Opened a TIFF image 6000px x 3987px 24 bit (68.4 MB uncompressed) sRGB color profile in Edit.
    2. Applied an Exposure filter with Exposure increased to +40 (1.20eV), Contrast +35, Fill Light +30
    3. Noted amount of change to image
    4. Clicked on Done - brief flash of the progress indicator then filter closes and image display in Edit is as noted in step 3

    Repeated above 3 times. No problems experienced.

    5. Opened TIFF image 6000px by 3987px 48 bit (136.9 MB uncompressed) sRGB color profile in Edit
    6. Applied an Exposure filter with Exposure increased to +40 (1.20eV), , Contrast +35, Fill Light +30
    7. Noted amount of change to image
    8. Clicked on Done - brief flash of the progress indicator then filter closes and image display in Edit is as noted in step 7

    Repeated 3 times. No problems experienced.

    I'm sorry but at this stage I'm not able to reproduce your issue, and I quite regularly use the filters on images this size and haven't run into the issue so far.

    What are the specs of your PC?

    The above tests were run on a PC with an Intel i7-10700 10Gen in a H470M OS3H main board, with 32GB RAM and a GXT 1660 OC 6GB Graphics Card with 471.11 Drivers.
    Windows 10 Pro 2H1, build 19043.1288, ACDSee Ultimate 2022, v15 build 2798.

    The OS and programs are installed on a 1TB M.2 NVMe SSD
    Database and images on a 2TB M.2 NVMe SSD
    Both of these drives are on the main board.

    What is the origin of the TIFF file, is it from a developed RAW, or is it from a scanner?

    Do you have a 3rd party antivirus protection installed, and if so, have you tried excluding ACDSee?
    What, if any, other software is running at the time you encounter this issue?.
    When you run this test, perhaps have Windows Task Manager open, and observe what is happening to CPU usage and memory, also GPU.
    It is unlikely that available memory is an issue unless you have a whole lot of other things running, since the max memory used by ACDSee in the above 24 bit test was only 820MB and for the 48 bit test only 1,121MB.

    Another issue that may or may not be related to the above.... I use Topaz Labs' Sharpen AI s/w to crisp up large images. I've only just started using this. Yesterday I processed an image generated in U2021 through Sharpen AI. It subsequently viewed fine in View mode in U2021, but when I switched to Edit mode, two weird, small, semi transparent green patches appeared on it.
    I am a long time user of Topaz, and I have Sharpen AI, Denoise AI, Gigapixel AI, Mask AI as well as a number of Topaz legacy applications. The majority of the Topaz apps I use as plugins from ACDSee's Edit mode. With the exception of Gigapixel AI, I prefer not to use them freestanding because in that mode metadata is not fully respected. When used as plugins from Edit, ACDSee retains the metadata.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Topaz apps.jpg
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    Generally the Topaz AI applications can do a reasonable job, albeit not quickly, but are known at times to produce some weird effects depending on the content of the image and the settings used. The AI apps are very dependent on the specs of the Graphics card and its drivers, and if you see something strange after processing, the first check I would carry out is to change the Topaz application to use CPU only and see if the issue still occurs.

    Comment


    • #3
      What are your colormetric settings?

      Comment


      • #4
        Hello Greyfox. We've been through this. You've seen my spec and okayed it. Problems happen regardless of what other apps are open. I sent you CPU and GPU usage stats.. all fine. I sent you an image and you agreed that special effects edits applied were indeed not carrying through when the done button was pressed. Sometimes not at all, sometimes only partially. You suggested reporting it to support, and I have done.

        My point here is that this seems to be happening with other edits too, not just spec effects. And it's telling that ACDSee Pro10 did not show the Topaz related corruption, but U2021 did. Although the failure to carry edits (spec effects) also applies to Pro10.

        It happens to all large images, regardless of origin. But not small images. It only happens with ACDSee s/w.

        I will check the anti virus.. but really?

        Frankly I'm exhausted by it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Regor, I'm not sure what you mean.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Antelope View Post
            Regor, I'm not sure what you mean.
            I mean these:
            Click image for larger version

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ID:	57843

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Antelope View Post
              Hello Greyfox. We've been through this. You've seen my spec and okayed it. Problems happen regardless of what other apps are open. I sent you CPU and GPU usage stats.. all fine. I sent you an image and you agreed that special effects edits applied were indeed not carrying through when the done button was pressed. Sometimes not at all, sometimes only partially. You suggested reporting it to support, and I have done.

              My point here is that this seems to be happening with other edits too, not just spec effects. And it's telling that ACDSee Pro10 did not show the Topaz related corruption, but U2021 did. Although the failure to carry edits (spec effects) also applies to Pro10.

              It happens to all large images, regardless of origin. But not small images. It only happens with ACDSee s/w.

              I will check the anti virus.. but really?

              Frankly I'm exhausted by it.
              Sorry, you may well have provided that information at some stage, but without links to it, I'm not sure I'd be able to find it again.

              The main point of my post was that I'm not able to reproduce your problem on U2022 on the PC I mentioned in my previous post.

              I've since also run the same recipe on U2021 on the same PC and also on U2020 on an older (circa 2011) PC also without being able to reproduce it.
              That PC has an Intel i7-2600 (Sandy Bridge) CPU, 16GB RAM, and a GTX1050ti graphics card, and it is running Windows 10 Pro, 20H2, build 19042.1288.

              So either:-

              (a) your recipe is not including something that is key to this issue, that would perhaps trigger it on any system. or
              (b) there is something about your specific system that brings about this issue.

              I'm not sure that the Edit display in Pro 10 uses the same display coding as that in U2021, so making any comparison between them may not be valid. I know for instance that the layered Edit mode in U2021 has a limitation in size (not relative to this issue) as a result of its dependence on DirectX, but that limit doesn't apply to its Develop display.

              In regards to your Topaz issue. If you get the same result when you look at your Topaz sharpened image every time it is opened in U2022, and you like to post a link to it (for example a free WeTransfer link) then I can see what it does on the system here. Better still if you can zip up the original and the Topaz'd images with a note as to what settings you used in Topaz..

              Incidentally, one thing does come to mind. In Edit mode, in some of the filter tools, there is an Exposure Warning. If that is enabled and your settings push the Highlights or Shadows into clipping (or the image already has tones being clipped) then areas in the displayed image will show respectively in red or in green. Those warning display colors go away when you click on Done, which can make the image look different. Could that be the cause of your Topaz issue (that the green area is a warning that the shadows are being clipped in that area).
              Click image for larger version

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              Attached Files
              Last edited by Greyfox; 10-27-2021, 07:19 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Regor, yes, CM is on and SP is off.

                Greyfox, as I went to bed last night, I remembered that I'd sent an image to the support desk, with a sequence of operations similar to the one I posted on this thread earlier but Special effects only, and they confirmed that they had the same problem. Spec Effects were not being fully applied, if at all. Which is why they've escalated the problem. What I didn't mention to them was that the same problem occurs with other edits too.

                Is there a way in U2021 of changing the bit color depth? I've just noticed that, for some unknown reason, all images in a given collection of images that are all part of the same exercise aimed at achieving a given result, vary in bit depth from 16bit to 64bit! Including 24bit. I have no idea why or how the bit depth has changed between images. But perhaps this is relevant.

                Good thought on the out of range warning, but the green patch appears after the done button is pressed, not before. But as I say, I've just noticed that it's mysteriously become 64bit. The trouble is I'm putting these images through such a tortured process, with many steps, that I forget what I've done to them. The original in this case would havhe been a 24bit jpg converted to TIF. It would then have been processed through online AI software, the outcome of which was a diminutive 32bit jpg of 900pix by 670. That is the base image from which everything since is derived.

                However I must emphasise that these problems apply to all images. If I open a 24bit jpg taken straight from a phone, with no edits, and apply 'edge detect' special effect, the problem still occurs. So it seems not to be image dependent. (I'm rather thinking as I go along here)

                I've just opened a previously edited image - a TIF of 4500x3400 pixels - which has somehow become 48bit depth, and it edits fine. But SE still fail. I'm lost with this now. I don't know when it happens, with what type of image, or what image trait brings the problems on. Fed up with it. I just want to get on with building this website.

                Anyway, here's a link to the green patch image. https://we.tl/t-2WUXCLonsg

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Antelope View Post

                  Anyway, here's a link to the green patch image. https://we.tl/t-2WUXCLonsg
                  I took screen shots of your image as opened in Affinity Photo, and as opened in ACDSee Ultimate 2022 (it opens the same in ACDSee Ultimate 2021)
                  Both look the same to me, and I intended to post the the screen shots here. Unfortunately it seems I have exceed some allowance and the forum won't let me upload the images.

                  So here is a WeTransfer link to them https://we.tl/t-7g0K0ZM1Qc

                  As far as I can see, the two look the same. There are lots of green patches, but they are in both, so is the green patch you refer to appearing in both, or not appearing in either?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I see the green patch (cupids arm and around angel's face) is not in your Affinity shot but is in ACDSee...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      That's what I see in Ultimate 2022 View or Develop Mode for the file you created:

                      Click image for larger versionName:	cap.JPGViews:	0Size:	428.0 KBID:	57860

                      BUT... then this is what I see in Edit Mode, which incidentally is the same I see in View mode after I saved it to a TIFF in the sRGB IEC6 1966-2.1 color profile (Yours has a color profile listed as IEC6 1966-2-1 black Scaled) :
                      Click image for larger version  Name:	Capture.JPG Views:	0 Size:	341.0 KB ID:	57861

                      Seems to me that the Black Scaled color profile is what is messing things up. I "Developed" your file, and Saved As a TIFF checking OFF the embedd
                      sRGB 1966-2-1 Black Scaled color profile
                      , and the TIFF now opens up in all modes showing as the first image seen above. If I then Edit this file and Save As again, but this time embedding the sRGB 1966-2.1 color profile, it still works as it was without the green blobs. Therefore I conclude that the embedded Black Scaled color profile found in your file is the source of you problem. When that color profile gets embedded into your image in your workflow is up to you to figure out. It seems that the Edit Mode (and Not Develop Mode) has difficulty with the Black Scaled color profile. That I would report to ACDSee. Meanwhile, get rid of it and things will work fine.
                      Last edited by Regor250; 10-28-2021, 09:31 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thank you for that. I did reference the black scaled profile earlier as possibly being problematic. I'm certain it's deriving from Topaz Lab's Gigapixel s/w.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Antelope View Post
                          I see the green patch (cupids arm and around angel's face) is not in your Affinity shot but is in ACDSee...
                          Yes, sorry I missed seeing that. But there is also some rogue blue on the lips and in the hair, and above the head some red and yellow, and when you look closely there are other color aberrations elsewhere in the image as well.
                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Odd colors.jpg Views:	3 Size:	351.8 KB ID:	57865

                          I'm not convinced that it is "black scaled sRGB" as such that is the problem, but rather this particular rendition of it.

                          I've taken your image and opened it in Affinity photo. As I have Affinity's work space set to sRGB IEC61966-2.1 Affinity converts the image to that color space. After exporting a 16bit per channel TIFF with an embedded ICC sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile, I then had Affinity convert it to IEC61966-2.1 Black scaled and exported another 16 bit per channel TIFF with embedded ICC sRGB IEC61966-2.1 Black scaled profile. And both of those open in all three modes View, Develop and Edit without the color issue.

                          Either way though, it only becomes apparent in ACDSee's edit mode, so that is something ACDSee should at least investigate.

                          Edit: I can also confirm that if you select sRGB as the output color profile in Topaz Gigapixel, you will get sRGB IEC61966-2-2.1 black scaled,

                          For what it is worth, I've taken your image, processed it in Gigapixel AI to scale it down to 0.5, saved that as TIFF sRGB (black scaled) then processed that again in Gigapixel to scale it up by 2, and again saved that as TIFF sRGB (black scaled). Both those show in ACDSee's Edit mode without the color aberrations.
                          Last edited by Greyfox; 10-28-2021, 05:28 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thank you for your help. I'm giving up on solving the problem and instead am simply working with it. Whatever it takes to strip out that back-scaled profile, I do. But the problem with U2021 refusing to apply edits.... well there doesn't seem to be a solution. I'm slowly moving away from ACDSee now and am making more use of Gimp, which is hugely powerful, if slow. It's also reliable. But the UI is old fashioned. So I'm also exploring PSP and Affinity, and others. It's a shame as I've just spent 84 dollars upgrading ACDSee. But what to do? Their support acknowledge a problem, but they don't seem likely to issue patches, saving instead any changes for the next release, now 2023. There re other issues too. Why on earth can I not simply change the bit depth? I have to use Gimp for this. As also for the dpi setting. The lagging brush is mildly irritating, but the tendency for brush size to randomly change by itself is even more annoying. Sliders are clunky too... being hard to make small changes. All in all, I'm annoyed and disappointed, as well as exhausted trying to find work rounds. Why waste my time? I'll keep it installed. It has its uses. But I need to find something better. May even turn to the old demagogue, PS.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Antelope View Post
                              Why on earth can I not simply change the bit depth? I have to use Gimp for this. As also for the dpi setting.
                              Did you try to use the "Export" function?

                              A question: I used Affiity Photo until recently. I was even one of the administrators of the French forum. I'm slowly giving it up for Ultimate.
                              In your opinion, how is Affinity better than Ultimate?

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